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Post by dayhjawk on Apr 9, 2020 21:51:21 GMT -5
What I would like to see out of a newly designed paladin class, is that a paladin isn't the spellcasting stunner, or a 2h wielding crusader. The term crusader, paladin, holy knight, etc, to me is kinda stupid.
So here is my thoughts:
First: Paladin should be able to use whatever 1h weapon he wants, but he very limited on 2h weapons. This is because he's received training as a 1h/shield user more than a 2h one. To me, if you want to use a 2h weapon, roll a shadowknight or a barbarian, etc because they've received better training. That's not to say that a paladin can't use a 2h weapon or isn't effective with what he can use, it's just he's focused more on being a defensive fighter than an aggressive one.
1h/Shield - freedom to pick what 1h weapon you want to use, it shouldn't matter. The paladin is different from others classes because it has recieved training and specializes in using the shield as a weapon. Does this mean, I want to see a paladin as a captain american style class. No! A warrior to me is the most balance of the tanks, by this I mean that a warrior should be able to hold agro no matter what weapon he chooses. If he wants to duel wield, he can hold agro. If he wants to go 1h/shield, he can hold agro, if he wants to go 2h, you get the idea. What makes the paladin different, is that the paladin knows more on what to do with the shield than any other class. So while anyone can pick up a shield and do a shield bash, a paladin knows how to use it better. So he knows how to shield charge, shield bash, that's maybe a little more powerful than a normal one, maybe it has a higher chance to stun. The point I am getting at, is while a paladin uses a 1h weapon and shield, I expect to see more shield based abilities. This is how he holds agro, this is how he's defensive, this is how he stuns.
When a tank, isn't tring to tank, which should be when he's not using a 1h/shield, he would whip out a 2h weapon and use it because he can get a little extra damage this way. In this matter, I can see the "crusader" coming into playing. He has abilities that allow him to be a little more agressive than normal.
Healing, I am a firm believer that a paladin should never be a main healer. Patch healer, someone to help keep the party going while a real healer is tring to throw out a long powerful heal.
Spellcaster, a paladin to me a way different than a cleric or some sort of other divine spellcaster. His spellcaster side is forced on helping him combat evil, devils, undead. So his abilities should focus on that, while the defensive spells should focus on protection, healing, utility, etc.
Shield - I beleive that paladins should have access to regular shields but alaso have access to paladin only shields, like in diablo 2.
Auras - Paladins should have auras, I think at think at this point it's a stable, I just want to see them done better. Thoughts - Paladins have 2 effects. 1. effects only the paladin, 2. effects the party/raid. I think they should also be limited to 3 or 4, and never allowed to run more than 1 actively at a time. This makes having additional paladins in a group/raid more useful. Should they stack, if two paladins are using the same auras? I think that would be too over powered, but maybe a small effect boost with deminishing returns if you try and stack them.
Paladin is lastly more than just someone who is someone who's really good at defeating undead. I think that staple needs to change. I think expanding this out to undead, demons, hellish evils fits better.
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eqn13
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Post by eqn13 on Apr 9, 2020 23:38:52 GMT -5
it may be too late for Class changes or maybe too late in development for something like this to happen but I would also like a swing at the Paladin and breaking it WAY out of the typical mold.
instead of using the EQ idea: 2H Only, with cleric spells that are 10 levels lower than the pally, or rather than going to with the WOW version that is Either a Tank OR a Healer. Why not go WAY outside of that and have fun but still remain in the realm of "Paladin"?
I am going to Try and explain what I am thinking, forgive me, I am basically pulling an idea out of nowhere, but I think it's easy enough to follow.
What if you took the Death Knight (unholy, frost, and blood) and literally reversed the "unholy" part to being "healing or more Holy".
Example, DK has a spell called Death and Decay, what if that was just an AE Buff/Heal. Call it Fires of Justice (i stole that name from GW2 guardian lol)
instead of pulling up an Undead NPC like a SK or DK might do, have them pull an Angel down as a Righteous Protector or whatever.
Instead of Scourge Stike it's Holy Stike.
Barrow a little from the Frost/Blood DK as well. This would give you a Massive pool of abilities to get ideas from.
I also would have Paladins NOT be "healers" no matter what spec they took.
Their heals should be a Self Heal: Lay of Hands and maybe a single target mediocre heal: think Ranger heals in EQ1, weak but useful in a pinch.
Give them some Smites and other spells that could be ranged spells but also heal the group a little tiny bit.
Maybe instead of outright heals, they have a passive ability that "passively regenerates" the pally and (maybe the group as well)
What if they could use TWO 1 handed Swords but they "block" Drizz Do'Urden style? what if they blocked Hard hits with spells like Virtue of Courage (GW2 guardian ability) where magical blessing block like a shield without having a shield.
Why does every tank type or paladin type ALWAYS have to have a shield a sword or Just a 2 handed sword only.
Not sure if you are doing Builds like WoWs talent trees, but maybe have an option or NOT be a 2H healing warrior.
whatever you do, try to avoid what I just saw Pantheon do to their Shaman. You have to uprank a DoT poison the spell with 20 levels of "AA" just to get a +4 group Poison buff.... VERY odd.
just ideas. trying to break the mold. I am in love with Defend the Night and support whatever you choose to do.
I normally will be playing a Cleric or Necro etc. But, if you make a class interesting enough, I will break out of my mold and go with something new and exciting and different.
cheers
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Post by dayhjawk on Apr 9, 2020 23:59:01 GMT -5
Here is some more thoughts on the class and just some paladin's abilities on the fly. **NOTE** - Block mechanics, blocking does not mean you completely block the attack, instead you have block chance and block efficency. Block chance is your chance to block, it's effected by the shield you use, your abilties, etc. Block efficiency is how good your shield is, maybe some abiltiies, but it reduces how much damage the paladin takes when he blocks. So if the paladin has 60% block effiency, then when he takes physical damage, and blocks, the damage is reduced by 60%. - Shield Bash - better verison of a shield bash, with a slightly higher chance at stunning.
- Blinding Flash - Imbued and erupts light from your shield, blinding nearby enemies for a few seconds.
- Provoke - You basic taunt, but if the paladin is using a shield, has a higher threat or if used against undead, demons, etc, higher threat.
- Shield Charge - allows the paladin to close the gap between his target and himself. Chance to daze/stun target.
- Smite - Imbued the paladin's next attack with divine power, slightly increasing the damage, greatly increasing if the target is undead, demon, etc.
- Hold The Line - Increase's the paladin's threat and block chance for a few seconds.
- Holy Bolt - Hurls a magical fireball at the target, this bolt is very weak against most mobs, but does great damage vs. undead, demons, etc.
- Vengence - Useable with any weapon, Increases paladin's damage for a few seconds, but greatly decreases his chance to block/parry.
- Divine Aegis - Allows the paladin for a few seconds to block more than just normal physcial hits, ie magical spells.
- Close wounds - Healing spell, single target.
- Cleanse - Removes poisons, disease, and curses.
- Consecrate Weapon - Weapon is temp. imbued with the power of his deity. Grants additional damage on attacks of a certain element ie light, fire, holy, etc.
- Shield Wall - 100% to block the next incoming physical hit, each successful block decreases this by 20%, Block Effifency is decreased by 25% and increases by 5% each successful block, effect lasts for 10 seconds.
- Shield Lob - (shield glows) then the paladin tosses a "spectral" image of his shield at the target. (ranged attack)
- Sentinel - Reduces damage taken by 15% for 15 seconds, Decreases by 1% per 1 second lost.
- Iron Will - increased threat generation, must have shield equipped to use. Lasts till death or reuse. Reduces mana compacity by 10% long as it's active.
- Lay of hands - Long reuse timer, heals the target by 35% with additional % depending on how much hit point (% based) is missing of the paladin's.
- Sworm Enemy - Greatly increases the damage the paladin does to a single target, but greatly increases the damage the paladin takes from other target.
- Retribution - Lasts for a few seconds, basically thorns. As the paladin takes damage, a % of that damage is reflected back at the attacker.
- Prayer of Healing - Group heal
- Righteous Fervor - Increase attack speed by 10% and reduces cooldown on all non-spells by 10%, but increases the cooldown on spell by 10%. Lasts for a few seconds.
- Divine Healing - revives target
- Shield's Renewal - For 12 seconds, whenever you successfully block, you heal for % of your missing hit points.
Auras - Auras, like I said have 2 effects, one that effects the paladin only and the second that effects everyone, including the paladin. Resolute - Resolute in his crusade, a paladin's faith in righteousness and justice fuels him. 1st - Increase's damage dealt by the paladin but at a cost of block/parry chance. 2nd - Increase's the party/raid's accuracy. Faithful - Pure in body and spirit against all temptations, the paladin trusts in the light to rid him of all impurities. 1st effect - Immunity vs. Fear from undead/demons. Resistance boost vs. effects from undead/demons. 2nd effect - Reduces the duration of certain aliments on the party/raid Bulwark - Shielding himself and nearby companions, the paladin stands resolute in the face of opposition, his faith is his shield. 1st effect - Boost's his block chance and effiency. 2nd effect - Reduces physcial damage the party/raid takes by 20%. |
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eqn13
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Post by eqn13 on Apr 10, 2020 0:06:40 GMT -5
good stuff there dayhjawk
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Post by dayhjawk on Apr 10, 2020 0:12:32 GMT -5
Reply to Eqn13's post.
Not sure how they are going to do it, but I personally would rather not see builds like in wow. I rather see limited skill bar, where some abilities you just can't fit onto your action bar. I think this make the skills more meaningful, but also, allows the player to find certain abilites that fit his/her playstyle.
I played neverwinter recently (massive changes to that game if you haven't played since mod 16) and I found the limited 5-6 skills to be ok-ish, and I find having more than 10 ( 1 thru 0 on keyboard) to be a bit much. I really do not want to see nor go back to having so many hotbars on my screen filled with all my abilties that i'm having to repeatly remember what skills are where and what skills does what.. I rather have 1 action bar, 10 skills, and have to move skills in and out depending on situation, but on a generally sense, I can find a set of skills that fit my playstyle, but that's me.
I personally think from a design point, having a paladin be like 75% warrior, 25% cleric, 50/50, or whatever you want to use here, to be a great starting place for class design, and keeping the mindset that the paladin is a mirror reflection of the shadowknight/dark knight. death knight (whatever you want to call the class) also a good design point. However, I want to see each class to feel unique and standalone.
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Gotty
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Post by Gotty on Apr 10, 2020 10:02:45 GMT -5
Ok, I'm gonna go and throw a spanner in the works here. I've played quite a few of the traditional Paladin characters across quite a few games but always felt they were sidelined into being very secondary, support style characters so I've gone back to the dictionary definition of a Paladin as a very brave knight. So, for me, a Paladin should not be the holy warrior that is normally portrayed in MMOs but he should be a warrior leader.
The Paladin should, initially, be able to use any weapon type that would normally be allowed to a warrior (with the possible exception of ranged weapons) as well as how that weapon is used; dual wield, sword and board or 2-hander. Once the Paladin hits a certain level then they must choose a weapon specialisation. Once the weapon specialisation has been chosen then, from that point onwards, that is all the Paladin is able to use. Armour would be a matter of choice, perhaps giving bonuses for complete sets to complement the weapon-style choices. For example, a Paladin would benefit from leather armour giving large dexerity/to-hit bonuses.
Auras are a great idea! Paladin/leaders would be very charismatic giving them access to long duration auras (or battle cries!) that would bolster courage (hitpoints), teamwork (higher chance to hit and/or increased damage or critical hits), fear and doubt in enemies (causing them to deal reduced damage and/or lower chances to hit), increase vigiliance to uncover stealthy opponents and so on. One very important thing would be that the Paladin has a permanent aura around them that would cause them to always gain aggro of an enemy leader/Paladin. This could be a good thing, keeping the big dangerous mob from hitting more squishy targets, or a very bad thing, always drawing aggro from a boss is injurious to health! They should also have short duration/instant auras (shouts) that would affect the Paladin's target. This could cause spellcasters to flinch and lose concentration, interrupting spellcasting and removing any active effects they may have cast, melee opponents to drop their weapons and flee, ranged weapon users to lose focus and cripple their hit chances etc.
Paladin/leaders should have one final skill in their arsenal - the Challenge! This is a once-per-fight style ability that instantly heals the Paladin to max hitpoints (or beyond!), interrupts any spellcasting and removes any ill effects from the Paladin but grabs massive amounts of hate/aggro from every enemy in range while debuffing them. This is a do-or-die skill which should will come with a downside; every skill/ability/stat will be reduced to 50% for a certain amount of time. If the skill is used again while in this recovery period then the recovery period will reset and double and the reductions will stack (50% down to 25% for the next activation before recovery expires, then to 12.5% and so on). This should prevent the skill from being used unless absolutely necessary.
So, there it is. A different take on how the Pallie should work. Any thoughts?
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Post by dayhjawk on Apr 10, 2020 15:59:17 GMT -5
I also really enjoyed the "Active" blocking mechanics in Neverwinter. Would love to see that play into the class design as well.
I'm not a fan of paladin and duel wielding, not to say I haven't done it, just I don't think it fits the class. Here's my thought:
Paladin - 1h (any), Shield (can use paladin only shields), limited 2h (sword, mace, spear), Longbow, no duel wielding
Shadowknight - 1h (sword, ax, spear) shields, 2h (any), crossbow, dueling wielding
Warrior - Any
Gotty, that challenge ability sounds really nice. I think maybe would fit a shadowknight better, at least that's how I am leaning. Really nice idea, might need some tweaking thou.
I think overall, the three tanks should be on par with one another, but each as it's place where they shine. I think it shouldn't be about which tank is better, but which tank fits your playstyle.
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Post by dayhjawk on Apr 10, 2020 22:19:32 GMT -5
Let me explain things another way, a typically fight.
Left click would be my basic attack with right click being my ability to pull out my shield. Holding right click allows me to block attacks, releasing allows me to no longer block attacks and be able to attack again using left click.
Some abilities, are greyed out if i'm not activatily blocking, some become useable when I am in block mode. For examples, I will use the skills I came up with in one of the post above. I just entered combat. I use my provoke ability, that is used regardless if i'm blocking or not to pull threat onto me. I notice that the npc is about to attack, so I quickly hold my right click. I block the attack, and with my block effiency, I was able to reduce that damage by a certain percentage. I then activate my Shield's renewal ability that allows me to gain a small heal everytime I am blocking, it lasts for 12 seconds, only works when i'm in block mode, if I leave block mode, then i'm not blocking and i'm not againing it's ability. It's still active for the duration, but I can weave in and out of block mode. Continueing to hold my right click, I block another attack. I then release and start left clicking (swinging) to get some damage in. I then activate my vengence to increase my damage and throw out another provoke. As the fight goes on, I start to learn the target's different attacks, what hits I can take, what hits I need to block, maybe what hits I need to step out of the way of.
This to me is both engaging and interesting and keeps me busy both as a tank and when i'm not tanking. I'm not having to sit here on auto, pressing a rotation of button to hold agro. It also makes the class a little more interesting because now, you have to master the ability to use the activate block, to learn the fights/encounters, and to master your skills: when you can use them, which work well with you, etc.
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Post by Simurgh on Apr 21, 2020 0:09:28 GMT -5
I will admit I am partial to the term crusader and paladin as a core identity component to the paladin class. I will agree that the spell casting element to a Paladin has never really fit for me. I mained a Paladin in WoW for many years and Retribution always felt very bland. While I was great at healing on the Holy Paladin it always felt way more like a Priest did and didn't feel like the Crusader identity I always felt was core component to the archetype. Protection spec always felt close to what I felt a Paladin should be but over time the flair of the class diminished further and felt very homogenized across the board. The Protection Paladin truly was the closest to a Paladin archetype I have always identified with as a player.
With that being said I reference other games as well where the Paladin exists like Diablo II and and even the Templar in ESO that feels far too focused o elements of light like the sun. While I enjoy these elements the balance between Protector and bearing light as a source rarely feel in any kind of a balance that feels realistic to this Archetype seen in more tabletop styled games.
I am pretty curious to see what they come up with in terms of crafting the Paladin in DTN. Once we get closer to that point I plan to share more around my ideas of this class design and some of the theory craft that go along with it.
Nice discussion points.
For the Crusade!
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